A few key figures in Christian hip hop hopped on a panel at SXSW 2016 this March to answer a variety of questions about the subgenre.
ARTSO founder Trisha Bell moderated a discussion titled “understanding the business of Christian hip hop” between Collision Records CEO Adam Thomason, Lamp Mode Recordings CEO Json and Word Entertainment A&R Joseph Prielozny.
An excerpt of their discussion is below.
Bell: How would you all define [Christian hip hop]?
Thomason: When me and Json got in to it, it was a desire to give an equal quality product that had a redemptive message to it. We saw that darkness was really being put out there and how music raised cats in the inner city. … So we said, “Well, what if we can raise these cats in the inner-city with a quality product and a quality message?”
With Christian hip hop, it wasn’t really to create its own subculture, but more of to say, “There’s another message that can invade this culture of hip hop.”
Json: I would agree with that 100 percent. I would just add on to that by saying I think Christian hip hop, even just that term, was a way of saying, “We’re not afraid to say that’s who we are.”
It was never like, we want to be distinctive from what we would call hip hop. We are hip hop, and we want you to know that we are Christians who do this and do this well.
I would say the definition was definitely, A, wanting to make quality music, B, wanting to make sure that the message was present in what we communicated and then, C, wanting to be able to also communicate a worldview so that others who heard our music were clearly able to see, “These dudes, not only does their title distinguish them, but it’s obvious that their music and the way they view the world distinguishes them as well.”
Prielozny: I agree with everything these guys say. The only thing I would add is that hip hop is about boldness. Just remembering the first time I heard it, a Cross Movement record — I had listened to Christian music, but — there was something distinct about Christian hip hop and its boldness of the message of Christ.
Bell: Lately, there’s been a lot of talk about the label of [Christian hip hop] needing to no longer exist and that it should be called something else. With the genre-specific labels being blurred in music across the board, what are your thoughts on this idea, and do you think having a label limits artists in the genre?
Thomason: You catch me at a time where I’m ultra-traveling around the world and seeing the Lord do miraculous things, and reading scriptures.
I think the conversation is overdone. I do not think what God has for you can be limited by a label. I’m just going to be honest with you.
I can run off a smattering of scriptures — Proverbs 21:1, where it says, “God controls the heart of a king and moves his heart wherever he wants just like a river.” Solomon says in Ecclesiastes, “He raises up who he wants to raise up, and he brings down who he wants to bring down.” He says, “Some things happen to the righteous that should happen to the wicked. Some things happen to the wicked that should happen to the righteous.”
I think we’ve made God labels and branding. I really want to vomit when I hear people talk about how, “That’s going to mess up my brand,” or, “That’s going to limit me in the marketplace.” What God do you serve?
It’s really appalling. Are you reading the Bible? Because the Bible doesn’t agree with that.
Now, like Trish was saying earlier, we’re to be excellent, but your excellency doesn’t move or hinder God. Do I think the label needs to exist? Whatever the burden is.
If your burden is to call yourself a Christian double Christian Christian of the Christian rappers, call yourself that. Who cares? It’s not going to stop what God has for you.
Json: I don’t think you have to wear a title. I don’t think you have to not wear a title.
But anytime, like you said, the title becomes the way by which God will move, then now we’re talking about a theological issue. We’re not talking about a title. We’re not talking about a brand.
Does it need to be removed? I would echo what he said. It just depends on what are you led to do — the motive, why do you not want the title?
I can’t judge anybody’s motives, so that’s what makes it difficult. I wish I could open your heart and let the world see it is what we say it is, but we can’t do that because we’re not God. Then I become guilty of what I’m asking you not to be guilty of.
Prielozny: Hopefully this whole talk will just disappear so we can start writing songs about other issues. I think that’s consumed us for a long time.
I think it’s growing naturally, too, because you’re seeing some artists break out and sign some major deals because the majors are looking now. They’re still unashamed of their faith, but they don’t like the name Christian hip hop, so hopefully this won’t be an issue in a year or two.
Bell: How do you think artists and people who are working in [Christian hip hop] can be more united, given that we have so many debates about these things that you just spoke of?
Prielozny: I’ll ask one artist, “Hey, have you heard of so and so?” “Nah, I haven’t heard of them.” There’s not a lot of championing going on right now.
Philippians 2, “Consider others more significant than yourselves.” How can we apply this to what we’re doing here?
I’m trying to encourage artists, “Hey man, you need to listen to these kids. They are your competition in a sense, but, man, they’re your brothers in Christ.”
We’re same team, and we’re all moving toward the same direction. I would love to see people rally around each other and support each other for a greater cause.
Thomason: I would piggyback on that with Romans 12. It just talks about, “rejoice with those who rejoice. Weep with those who weep.” I believe Paul wrote that because if you don’t have that heart, then you’re going to naturally lean toward coveting and envy.
Jesus talked about it, too, in John 4. He said to the disciples, “You’re about to break in to the harvest, and we like to celebrate the harvest.” But he said, “There’s a lot of sowers who died nameless that set this up for you.”
I feel like in our genre, we just need to raise people up, like, “Hey, you need to be a sower. You’re not going to get attention. You need to be okay with that.” But this is what Jesus said: “The sower and the reaper will rejoice together in Heaven equally.”
Prielozny: Same chapter, Romans 12:10, “Outdo one another in honoring each other,” so it’s a competition for us. What would that look like if we actually did that?
Json: It’s the idea of maintaining the spirit of unity and the bond of peace. What really exists among a lot of dudes coming up is there’s no real bond, no real fabric holding cats together. They say Christ is holding us together, but really you only want to be cool with me because of music.
I have friends that I’m cool with and I may not love what they do musically, but I love them enough to where it’s like … when I think about your daughter, when I think about your son, when I think about your wife or husband and this is the way by which you provide for them, my opinion becomes less valuable about the way you do your art. I think unity is maintained when we respect each other as a bond that exists beyond what we do musically.
Bell: With your experience working in [Christian hip hop], would you say the way business is done has grown, and if so how?
Thomason: When we came into the game, it was more of an uptrend and fad. I use that term because an industry has infrastructure. If you talk about music, the infrastructure needs to be legitimate touring to break artists, legitimate radio, legitimate promoters who put money up to actually buy the concert and sell the tickets so more than 50 people show up at the shows, legitimate managers — things like that.
When we came in, those legitimacies weren’t there. I felt like it was really more of a fad and a trend than it was an industry to come into. I think as we look at [Christian hip hop] right now, or some would say the lack thereof, we just have to ask the question, “What are we moving toward?”
I think branding has grown, and that has kind of ruined us because now you can brand something that’s not good. Now we have everybody who knows how to brand, but they don’t have the actual structures to justify the brand that they have. Has it grown? Not from an industry standpoint.
Json: I would say, in a lot of ways, it has grown. I can quote, “I don’t care how many albums I sold, because honestly, I really don’t want to know.”
Now, granted, I love that line, and I love what the content was behind that line, but I think we want to know now. I think there was something genuine about those times, though, in you not caring. I wish there was a way to still have that and want to know, but I don’t know if they can live together.
Individually, I think people are growing and learning, but I definitely agree that it’s not really an industry necessarily. We can say what everybody here’s probably thinking: Reach is the industry and everybody else is not. That’s really what we all feel, and is probably the closest to the truth that we can communicate.
Thomason: More CCM is the industry.
Json: Right.
Prielozny: Which is exciting. We need artist managers. We need booking. It’s going to take people going to intern somewhere that’s not the genre of music you may like, just the get the knowledge, and the lane is wide open for anyone to come in who has some influence and experience to say, “I’m starting a booking agency for Christian hip-hop artists. I want to manage these artists.”
Json: We need writers, things of that nature — people who are like, maybe I don’t need to be in front of the stage, but I’m dope when it comes to crafting things behind the scenes.
I agree. Man, a manager? Talk to any Christian hip-hop artist, their momma might be their manager, or they’re their own manager.
I know those things aren’t really lucrative right now, but once we start building those infrastructures, those things will help it grow.
Bell: For any new Christian artist who wants to do hip hop and be part of a label, how should they position themselves to be recognized?
Thomason: I would tell you what we affirm in artists.
We affirm character across the board. Basically, will the person we see be the person you are when we’re not around? That’s not a given. That isn’t a dime a dozen.
We affirm fortitude. All of us have made it through adverse circumstances. If you don’t have fortitude and you’re thinking things should happen for the ideal, we can’t deal with you because life isn’t about the ideal, it’s how you respond to the non-ideal.
We do look at season of life. We prefer young, single, hungry, but if you are recently married, if you have children, where is your heart with that? Is this a hobby on the side? What are your expectations?
[When] trying to [be recognized], it’s more about who you are because all of us have been through it: We’ve seen talented people who don’t have character, who you got to micromanage and it’s just draining. Then eventually you just end up cutting them dry.
Prielozny: A lot of labels, too, these days don’t have the time to develop artists. Labels now exist to amplify what’s already going.
Kids these days are so good at the computer they’re doing their own videos, recording themselves. Aside from the character side, that’s the practical stuff — meeting with Philip [Rood] and Rapzilla, getting on SoundClick, getting a buzz, mixtape sites.
People are watching. If you’re not proactive already and growing as an independent, no label’s going to be interested.
Thomason: That’s true because, on that point, if you’re not proactive as an independent, then what you’re thinking is a label is going to come and blow you up. But you’re not going to proactive when a label blows you up. What you’re going to do is become a fat cat and just receive the benefit.
We all got stories to where that has just ruined situations.
Json: I would also argue that most of the labels that may be looking at you are really just indie labels. There’s not a lot of paper to throw around. It’s going to be important for you to have that grind on your own.
I want to sign somebody very badly. It’s just very difficult to find character pieces. But I’m always looking at dudes.
Image is important. I know you’re like, “Oh, you’re a Christian, you shouldn’t care.” No, you should care how you look. That matters.
The way you carry yourself on social media — if I see a dude I’m interested in, I’ll literally go to his Twitter and roll up his feed like, are you a bitter rapper? If you’re a bitter rapper, I can’t really do anything with you. I’m just going to make you madder.
Prielozny: And on developing relationships, don’t talk about music for the first two weeks. We know what you’re after, but let’s get to know each other.
Json: Yeah, let it breathe. Image is important, social media. You don’t got to have big numbers, but I want to know what you’re communicating.
All of the spiritual aspects, I think that goes without saying. Are you immersed in the culture? Even I struggle with this.
I remember there was a day when I did music where I wasn’t trying to be a part of what was hot. I was already in the know. Now I feel like a lot of us as Christian artists at times, we’re outside looking in.
Thomason: I think another thing, too, on that is … I challenge my artists with this and any artist asking for advice: Ask yourself the question, could anyone else write what I just wrote? That equals, are you a cliché?
Joseph, he’s got some good artist exercises where he’ll tell artists, “I need you to make a song about cereal.” That means now you can’t default to Jesus, pleases, thesis.
Photos by Philip Rood
